You can be anti-NATO and anti- Putin. It’s not a mutually exclusive position. MLs are anti -NATO. Putin is anti-NATO. Their interests align. That doesn’t mean MLS are pro-Putin. This isn’t hard Vaush.
this post was submitted on 25 Jul 2023
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You can be anti-NATO without regurgitating Russian propaganda, just like in WW2 you can be anti-USSR without spewing pro-Nazi propaganda or justifying the invasion of sovereign states by Nazi forces.
And yet, Western tankies never fail to suck off the latest imperialist in the name of 'anti-imperialism'. Wonder why that is. Couldn't be because they're fascists painted red, could it?
Have you actually talked with “tankies?” Yes, some are so anti-NATO that they veer into authoritarianism. But not all, or even most. I’ve had better discussions with tankies than liberals on here. Do I agree with everything they say? No. But I can understand where they’re coming from. Try talking with some. Are you pro-NATO?
Have you actually talked with “tankies?”
Yes. Too many. I've been arguing with tankies for a decade and a half now. I once knew a guy from Aussieland who wrote long rambling screeds on how firebombing capitalists was the only way for the proletariat forward. I knew a Westerner who unironically praised Juche and decried everything anti-NK as capitalist propaganda. I knew an atheist-turned-ultra-Orthodox who critically praised Stalin.
I've talked to plenty of fucking tankies. Some of them aren't inherently bad people, deep down. But they all have shitty views.
Yes, some are so anti-NATO that they veer into authoritarianism.
Are you... are you taking the piss?
The entire point of a 'tankie' is that they veer into authoritarianism.
'Tankie' doesn't mean 'socialist', it means 'apologist for the kind of regimes that would crush the socialist revolution of Hungary in 1956 for being the wrong kind of socialist'.
So you don’t consider tankies socialist? Are Marxist Leninist socialists? Are you socialist?
"Tankie doesn't mean socialist" meaning "Tankie and socialist are not synonyms". All tankies are (arguably) socialists, but not all socialists are tankies. Most socialists, since the fall of the USSR and the flow of funds from it, are not tankies.
By not answering if you are a socialist or if you’re pro-NATO, I can only assume you are a liberal or centrist. If that is the case, I can understand why you hate tankies. You are closer to MAGA then they are. Of course they’re your enemy.
lmao. Not a tankie, just using the same rhetoric as they do. Why don't you call me a 'social fascist' next for believing in a democratic government?
Is MAGA or right conservatism more of a threat than tankies?
To me, personally? MAGA is more of a threat. To many elsewhere in the world, tankies are the greater threat. Unless you'd like to go talk to some folk in concentration camps in Xinjiang and tell them that their real threat is American right-wingers.
Nazis are worse than tankies, but not for lack of trying by tankies.
From a utilitarianist perspective, American right-wingers are a bigger threat. If they take over, they have an $860 billion military to unleash on the world. The way I’m interpreting this; you’re a closet conservative who thinks he’s a liberal. Yo hate communism more than fascism. Am I correct?
If they take over, they have an $860 billion military to unleash on the world.
"To unleash on the world"
Tell me you have a surface level understanding of world politics without saying you have a surface level understanding of world politics.
Yo hate communism more than fascism. Am I correct?
I already literally said the opposite
Nazis are worse than tankies, but not for lack of trying by tankies.
Are you even pretending to argue in good faith at this point? If you are, it's not very convincing.
I try to always argue in good faith. But I tire of arguing with liberals/ conservatives with recursive arguments. There is no logic. If there is, you fail to make me understand it. Is this WhatIfAltHist?
"I try to argue in good faith", they say in response to being called out for literally ignoring the fact that I already answered that fascists were worse than tankies, and disingenuously asserting the opposite with a leading question.
We're done here.
Okay, you said that fascist are worse than tankies. I didn’t mean to offend you. I have a dentist appt. tomorrow and I’m on edge. You never answered what is better than a planned economy?
what about chinese nationalists not on weibo
They're suss, but they might actually sensibly oppose Putin's war when not under the watchful eye of the Comrade-Chairman, since Russia's war in Ukraine is actually Not Good for Chinese interests.
How is it bad for China? Last I heard, they were getting Russian fuel for pennies on the dollar.
Sets bad precidents (China actually hates regional separatists), makes relations with Western powers rocky, has united NATO and the West at a time when China would really like everyone to fall apart so they can enforce regional hegemony, a couple of other things it's too early in the morning for me to ramble about.
Cheap fuel is good though, it's not all bad for them. But that's incentive for China to see Russia continue to suffer, not to succeed.
I see. Thank you for the explanation!
Western tankies don’t support Putin.
I have yet to meet a Western tankie who doesn't regurgitate pro-Russian talking points on the Ukraine War, so I'm gonna have to press X to doubt on that one.
Not a Marxist Leninist, but I understand where they’re coming from, why can’t you?
If you asked me if MLs had a point with regards to nearly any other foreign or economic policy position, I'd agree that there's some place of validity they're coming from. But the unrelenting support (no matter how many times they call it 'critical') of Russian imperialism and Chinese totalitarianism reveals them as bootlickers to the last. There is no justification for the Ukrainian War that can be claimed from anything except a Russian nationalist position, and those who say otherwise while jerking off to Russian atrocities against Ukrainian civilians can eat shit.
Which do you dislike more? Tankies or MAGA? When was the last time a Tankie won a political office in your country? Have any tankies even run for office? Even if you detest tankies, they are not the immediate threat. Hard right conservatives are. Fight one battle at a time. Last time I checked, tankies were against far right conservatives, so they’re an ally, for now.
Which do you dislike more? Tankies or MAGA?
MAGA, though not for lack of hate from tankies. As you folk are so quick to remind me, 'liberals get the bullet too', wherein 'liberals' means 'anyone who disagrees that the Soviet Union was the only way forward and not a complete bastardization of Marx's work'.
Even if you detest tankies, they are not the immediate threat. Hard right conservatives are. Fight one battle at a time.
What battle against tankies am I fighting that takes away from fighting against hard-right conservatives? Hard-right conservatives in this country are anti-Ukraine as well, so this fight, if anything, hits two birds with one stone.
Last time I checked, tankies were against far right conservatives, so they’re an ally, for now.
Fucking lmao. Isn't that the line tankies have used every time since the October Revolution to ensure they're in a place to massacre all other leftists and ensure that they're the only viable opposition to the right? Get the fuck out of here.
I am not a tankie, I’m an anarchist. And I’m aware of what the “tankies” did to people like me in 1923. But the threat to me is fascism right now. Deal with the Nazis first, then you can deal with the communists. Seems logical to me. If you think you can fight a two-front war you’re only helping fascism.
Funny how that line doesn't apply when tankies and "totally I'm an anarchist you guys" are hostile towards capitalists and liberals. It's only people who aren't tankies who are obligated to not 'fight a two-front war', here meaning 'saying anything in any context against the opposition'.
I read that three times and still don’t understand it. If I could pee in a cup to prove I’m not a Marxist Leninist I would. I ally with them, because I hate capitalism too. This has happened before in history. Capitalism is unsustainable and destroying the planet. It will fail. What do you want to replace it with? Capitalism lite? I understand that planned economies are the only viable option for the future. I would prefer council communism or anarchist-syndicalism, but they have never been undertaken at such a large scale. If Marxist-Leninism is the best path at that time , I’ll understand. My concern is climate change. By holding on to liberalism/capitalism you and your ilk are dooming us all.
In simpler terms, you yourself have spent ample time in this very comment section criticizing liberals and then turning right back around and saying that if liberals criticize tankies, they're waging a 'two-front war' and actually helping the fascists.
I didn't bring it up because I dislike tankies and their useful idiots, but I'm not a supporter of capitalism, certainly not in the long-term. And a planned economy is certainly fucking not the only way forward.
The only thing MLs bring is a complete misunderstanding of Marx's work in exchange for some really strange idealistic pseudo-religious dogma about vanguards and just murdering enough kulaks to REALLY achieve communism this time, honest; completely ignoring the historical dialectic which was so fucking central to Marx and Engel's theories.
You seem to think that socialism/communism in America would be like Soviet Russia. It could be, would that not be better for the planet? It may be something better? I’m intrigued. What economy would be better for the planet than a planned economy? Bartering? Sex for rations?
Alright well nice to meet you. Now you have.
You freely accept the title of 'tankie'?
Like, you look at 1956 and 1968 and say "Yeah, that's really swell, fuck those workers for being the wrong kind of workers"?
I’m a Marxist Leninist. That’s what people mean when they say tankie. And there’s much more nuance to history than that, and I’m not interested in having a bad faith argument with some guy on the internet. Read the literature and decide for yourself. Or don’t and just remain ignorant as fuck about something you seem to be passionate about, I don’t fucking care dude.
Why would a Marxist Leninist support Putin though?
I don’t know. Something about being anti nato, possibly not understanding russias current government and how it differs from the Soviet Union.
Proper Marxist Leninists should be against imperialist war no matter what, and supporting Putin just makes zero sense to me when you look at what he does to socialist and communist groups in Russia.
We lost another ally!? They’re so positive they’re right, they never consider they might be wrong. I don’t think he was trolling. I think he’s read some history from liberal frame and never read it from the other side. Sad 😞