Anatoly Karlin @powerfultakes
Replying to @RichardHanania
I'm against legalizing bestiality because the animal consent problem hasn't been solved, but probably actually will be quite soon thanks to Al (at least for the higher animals with complex languages). So why not wait a few more years. I don't see disgust as a good reason. It was an evolutionary adaptation of the agricultural era against the spread of zoonotic illnesses, but technology will soon make that entirely irrelevant as well.
If killing animals for the entertainment of your palate is morally ok, then raping animals for the entertainment of your dick/vagina should also be morally ok. You dont need to do either of these things, yet 95%+ of people continue choosing to do one of them. Is it weird that some people think it is ok to also do the 2nd thing?
And in before "what if the animal consents and we can talk to animals through AI". You can talk to children and you still shouldnt fuck them.
shut the fuck up
Uh, one of those options provides food, which is critical for life. Yes, you can not eat meat, that's not what I'm specifying. Compared to beastiality eating meat suffices a tangible need.
Food is critical for human life but not meat. Unless you are living in a remote island in the middle of the ocean, you can have a tasty and healthy vegan diet by visiting a supermarket. But most people choose not to. They value the perceived entertainment they get from eating animal products higher than the death and suffering they cause.
It isnt a big leap from that position to bestiality. If you see animals as commodity to serve humans and not living beings with agency, why not fuck them. You are killing them in an industrial scale, raping them almost seems minor in comparison.
Hell you can even kill them afterwards and claim you are using the "whole animal" therefore you are more ethical than people who just murder animals without raping them first.
You can make all kinds of absurd debatebro arguments, anything that can enable you to ignore the massive animal Holocaust that is so normalized in our society.
I do tire of over and over explaining to vegans how the natural predation cycle works and that if aliens picked me up off the earth and promised to tend all my injuries and illnesses and give me all the food I could ask for in exchange for a slightly shorter than natural lifespan and as painless a death as they knew how to make it, I'd probably take them up on their offer.
Just because something is natural, it doesnt mean it is moral. Rape is natural and extremely common but we as society have decided that it is not cool. Though not everyone seems to have gotten the memo.
Animals in the meat and dairy industry live horrific lives and are pumped full of antibiotics because that is cheaper than providing them with proper living conditions.
And they dont live slightly shorter lives, most them are killed while they are still kids because that is more economically efficient. We just pump them full of hormones and/or genetically modified them to gain mass(meat) as fast as possible.
Here is a table that shows how long animals can live vs when they get slaughtered
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegetarian/comments/3d0ni4/age_of_animals_when_slaughtered/
Ultimately it is about agency and realizing that other animals are like us and deserve to live their lives and not to be treated as commodity for our entertainment.
If you have the choice to greatly reduce the suffering and death you cause, with very little effort, why wouldnt you do it.
Do you genuinely root for the gazelle every time you watch a nature documentary?
[citation needed]
I swear, if you're talking about me, you will hear from my lawyer.
I rail against CAFOs too -- those places need to be outlawed yesterday -- but they're not the only kind out there. There does exist sustainably farmed meat raised without antibiotics if you know to look for it. Judging any industry solely by its worst example is lying to yourself.
Also, what is genetic modification but selective breeding with extra steps? We've been doing that for millennia. It's what domestication is. And unless you're about to sit here and tell me that owning a dog is immoral I think you'll have a hard time arguing that either of those things are.
Animals have no other option. They cant go to the supermarket and get whatever. Similarly, i dont expect people living in an isolated tiny island in the middle of the ocean to be vegans. But most people dont belong in that category.
I am not against genetic modification and i agree that this is the same. But ultimately, we have designed chickens that are literally too big to walk and live. If that is not immoral, i dont know what is.
I do think that we shouldnt own animals, though since there are tons of domesticated homeless animals(stray dogs/cats), we should help them(by adopting them). But in an ideal world, we shouldnt have pets. And especially not designed breeds that have health issues(breathing, skeleton issues, etc).
Sounds like we agree that eating meat is not in and of itself immoral. Good. I agree that the meat industry in the United States is way bigger than it has any right to be and that as a result of that, and of being exclusively profit-driven, it has done quite a number of things that ought to be illegal.
I have the same problem with puppy mills and designer breeds that I have with CAFOs, but I'll challenge your point that we shouldn't own animals. A domesticated dog is no more capable of living independently, and therefore, I'd argue, no more deserving of the right to do so, than a human child.
Killing people is not always immoral, yet you dont see many people advocating murder. But when it comes to meat, it's a different story.
If you make a scenario extreme enough, you can debatebro anything. "Would you shoot a baby if you could save the lives of trillions?". "What about baby Hitler?". Ultimately all these are meaningless thought exercises. And it is sad that so many people are trying to rationalize and excuse their consumption of meat. But i guess everyone is a product of their environment and meat consumption is normalized in our society.
There wouldnt be any domesticated animals. We help the ones that exist and once they are gone, they are gone. We wont breed more.
First of all, are you seriously equating eating animals to killing people?
Second, in your ideal world, humans and animals would have no relations whatsoever? Sounds pretty boring imo
You can interact with animals but on a different basis. Instead of imprisoning them in your house, they will be free to come and go.
Domestication isn't fair to the dogs, sure, fine, whatever. You know what's really not fair to the dogs? Letting them go extinct because you feel some type of way about how they're treated.