In 4 things white people can do to start making the fediverse less toxic for Black people (DRAFT!) and its cross-posts, quite a few people said things like "maybe racism is a problem on Mastodon, but I don't see it on Lemmy." Then again, plenty of comments in the various threads were in fact examples of racism on Lemmy, so one takeaway is that at lot of people don't see racism even when they're looking at it. And helpful commenters pointed out some of the other patterns of racism on Lemmy. ... but that wasn't really the thrust of that discussion.

So I wanted to ask more generally, what are some of the examples you've seen of racism on Lemmy? Quotes and links are great, but also feel free just to describe examples or call out more general patterns!

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Reasons why racism on Lemmy is less of an issue:

There are only a few Lemmy instances - those that harbor racism are easily defederated from.
Downvotes make bad content easy to detect, even if not reported.
Content is posted into communities, which have moderators. Hashtags on Mastodon are un-moderated.
Unlike mastodon, replies are sent to all instances so visibility is higher. No hiding in obscurity.
Federated networks tend to have a central hub - Lemmy.world is well moderated, unlike mastodon.social.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Lemmy.world is well moderated, unlike mastodon.social.

I mean, to be fair, .social has ~224k MAU and .world has ~18k

[+] [email protected] -8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (5 children)

These are all good points (and not having anything like Mastodon's followers-only posts removes another way to hide in obscurity). Moderators certainly got involved in some of the cross-posts of the earlier thread, at least a dozen comments were removed on beehaw and a couple people got banned from the awful.systems thread.

On the other hand, downvoting can also be used as a weapon to try to bury discussions of racism (this thread btw is at -17, the previous one is at -70).

Also somebody here mentions that "There’s currently only 1 user that I’ve noticed that keeps bringing race up." (hiii!!!!). A culture where people don't talk about race means that whiteness is normalized and unexamined. And quite a few of the comments in this thread (saying I'm the racist, analogizing me to a "Karen", calling me a fool) and the previous ones ("is this a joke?", "haha", "Lol, how is race relevant? Obv rage bait shitpost", the one analogizing me to Hitler) are all consistent with an environment where reactions to somebody bringing up race are hostile. Almost nobody is challenging these comments, in fact they've got plenty of upvotes.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Look you've been shot down so many times by so many people, but 'they're all wrong and I'm right' is your take away?

I'm beginning to think troll rather than misguided.

I'll say it loud so those at the back can hear too:

YOU CAN'T FIGHT RACISM WITH MORE RACISM!

It really is quite simple.

Blocking you seems like the best idea in this thread so far.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago

You’ve been asked for evidence multiple times and refuse to supply it.

At this point you’re most likely a right wing troll trying to stir up shit.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

downvoting can also be used as a weapon to try to bury discussions of racism (this thread btw is at -17, the previous one is at -70).

This is not "weaponization", this is downvotes being used for their intended purpose: to hide bad content (ie: incessant race-baiting). Some people don't like downvotes, and some instances/communities don't allow them. Maybe try filling those with your bad content instead and you'll have better luck.

are all consistent with an environment where reactions to somebody bringing up race are hostile.

This isn't about you "bringing up race", this is about you trying to squeeze racism from a stone.

Almost nobody is challenging these comments

Maybe take that as a sign that almost everybody disagrees with you, and maybe this is not the place for you.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Moderators certainly got involved in some of the cross-posts of the earlier thread, at least a dozen comments were removed on beehaw and a couple people got banned from the awful.systems thread.

It seems as if the only way you'd ever say there is NO racism on Lemmy is if there was no need to moderate racist posts - if there were no racist people present. That's a much higher bar than "have you SEEN racism", which requires racist posts to be left unmoderated for a substantial amount of time so that many people can see them and then provide the "quotes and links" you are soliciting. It feels like you've shifted the goalposts a bit, now.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 month ago

I was agreeing with you that moderation can make a big difference in how many people see the racist posts (and defederating from instances that are known sources of racism). Still, even when moderators remove posts, people still see them -- people in this thread talked about posts using "playing the race card", inflammatory memes, and other stuff that moderators removed. So I don't see it as moving the bar from the question of whether people have seen racism. But I certainly agree that racism that moderators don't address is a bigger problem!

[–] blue_berry 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I think the topic of racism and discrimination needs to happen on the Fediverse if its an issue. However, I'm worrying that your approach is more counterprodctive. I think its fine to ask for proof for the supposed racist culture on Lemmy, because I think every argument needs to have some argumentative ground. I'm against discrimination (which certainly happens on the Fediverse), but I dont think identity politics have come up with productive tools to tackle the issues they point out.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The revised version of 4 things white people can do to start making the fediverse less toxic for Black people (DRAFT!) will have (or maybe link off to) a list of examples on Lemmy -- that's why I started this thread. But, you don't have to wait! There are multiple examples in this thread and the thread I linked to in the OP.

And yes, there are tools. I'll have more links in the revised version, but one good place to start is Ijeoma Oluo's Welcome To The Anti-Racism Movement — Here’s What You’ve Missed

[–] blue_berry 1 points 1 month ago

It was an interesting read. I'm willing to do certain parts of that like listening more to marginalized voices. What bugs me though is that basically the text says that we need to disrupt the system, because its racist; but on the other hand, it basically assumes that the system was and always has been racist. And this is again identity politics: based on Focaults post structuralism; societal, liberal progress is a myth, etc. etc. There is no actual believe in societal progress (which I do believe in primarily through technological progress).